Down the Rabbit Hole
Things outside of the conventional strength & conditioning stuff.
dcsportstraining.substack.com
Down the Rabbit Hole
Beyond Mechanical: How John Iams Revolutionized Pain Treatment
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Have you ever wondered why some pain persists despite countless treatments? The answer might lie deeper than muscles and joints, hiding in your nervous system's reflexes.
John Iams, the brilliant mind behind Primal Reflex Release Technique (PRRT), joins us alongside his son Erick to share how this revolutionary approach has transformed pain treatment. Trained as a physical therapist in the 1960s, John had the rare opportunity to study under Dr. Janet Travell, the same physician who treated President Kennedy's notorious back pain. This connection to medical history sparked John's lifelong quest to understand how our bodies process and maintain pain patterns.
What makes PRRT so remarkable is its understanding of our "primal wiring." Rather than viewing the body as needing to be lengthened or strengthened, John recognized that our nervous system operates on reflex patterns that can be "rebooted" like a computer. This insight allows practitioners to resolve pain issues that other approaches can't touch, often in just one session. From treating Vietnam veterans with severe injuries to helping elite athletes overcome chronic tightness, PRRT addresses the underlying neurological patterns that keep us locked in pain.
The conversation delves into fascinating territory: how emotional components trigger physical pain, why modern technology keeps our nervous systems perpetually upregulated, and simple techniques you can use at home (like a powerful diaphragm reset). We explore how athletes particularly benefit from PRRT, as their intensive training schedules often leave their nervous systems in a state of chronic sympathetic activation that no amount of stretching can release.
Whether you're dealing with persistent pain, working with athletes, or fascinated by the intersection of neurology and physical therapy, this episode reveals how our primal reflexes might hold the key to lasting relief. Ready to understand pain from a completely different perspective? This conversation might change how you think about your body forever.
To learn more about PRRT check out https://www.theprrt.com/
Introduction to John and Eric Imes
Speaker 1Jeff here back with another podcast down the rabbit hole . Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this . Download this , however you are stream this . However you are choosing to listen to this , I really , really do appreciate it . Today's podcast guys , we got John Imes and Eric Imes . John is the creator of PERT primal Technique and his son is currently running the company .
Speaker 1As John is nice and retired and living in a very warm , nice place , pert might sound familiar as I've talked about it through several podcasts and if anyone who's been listening with me for a while might recognize it , as I did an episode back in season one during COVID 2020 with Rachel Henderson , who is a master practitioner of Pert and was my instructor for level three and level four , and I wanted to get John on because , well , first of all , john is one of the smartest people I've ever had the good fortune of listening to and learning from , of listening to and learning from . John uh is well , well known through the at least the pert circles that I I've been around , as being just this , this absolute genius he is . He has these which we get into a little bit . He is very famous for his library , which he converted his garage into a library that uh , legendarily , had books from the floor all the way up to the ceiling , covering the entire place . John , there's no stone that uh unturned , that john hasn't looked for ways to decrease pain . Um , you know , I wanted to get john on and eric on to learn about the genesis of pert . Where did it come from ? Where did the ideas come from ?
Speaker 1Because John was originally I mean , he's originally a physical therapist and , you know , went to the PT school in San Diego State back in the 60s and was fortunate to learn under Dr Janet Travell , who any history buff might recognize that name as the physical therapist that got to work with president john f kennedy , um , because anyone who was a kennedy fan like I am , no , would know that he had some major issues , um , with his , with his back , with his knees , uh , and was in a lot of pain a lot of times , and uh found that , uh , dr janet trevelle's work , work , was one of the only things that really helped him to get through . And so , being able to learn from a legend like that and unfortunately , dr Janet Travelle's name is a name that's being forgotten throughout history , throughout history , and you know John has done a lot to talk about her influences on his work and him and many other experts in the world of pain relief . And you know , I wanted to learn from John . I wanted to see you know when did he start looking at reflexes ? You know what are reflexes . You know what kind of directed him to start looking at that as far as pain relief , you know , because going back to physical therapy school and even today , which we get into back then , and what's going on right now , it's still lengthen and strengthen , right . Everything's either too short or too weak and that's generally , unfortunately , still the motto . And so John wanted to look at other ways and this podcast . We get into it a little bit what our reflexes , the different reflexes , because there's different kinds and then what directed him to start using that and some of his history into it .
Speaker 1So I hope you guys enjoy this podcast as much as I do . Please share it . Please give me a like . You know I don't . You know
Genesis of PRRT and Dr. Janet Travell
Speaker 1I don't . I don't . You know this is something . This is a labor of love . This is me selfishly wanting to talk to people way smarter than me , so I can learn and just share that information . You know , please , please share it . Or , if you have comments , you know . Send me a comment on Instagram , you know . I hope you enjoy .
Speaker 1Thanks , listen , john . Eric , it is an absolute pleasure to have you both on . I've been a student of yours . I've been practicing your work that you have created for since 2017 , I want to say is kind of when I started going down the rabbit hole of PERT I think it was 2017 , which is shoot what eight years ago , something like that . So it's been a while . I've had the good fortune of speaking with you guys before , but never on a podcast , so I appreciate you both taking the time so much for jumping on uh with me and uh . Yeah , this is , this is this is an honor . So thank you so much happy to be here .
Speaker 2Thanks for having us yeah great , yeah , all right .
Speaker 1Well , mr mr imes , if you , if you'd be so kind , you know , can you please ? I mean , I did a podcast as we're talking a little bit off off air with Rachel Henderson , who is an instructor for you guys , and she was one of my instructors for level three and four in person . But you know , I want to kind of get to the genesis . You know , my background is in history and studying kind of the originality of a lot of things , and we did not get into the originality of per in your background and kind of you know how you came to create this amazing system . So , john , I mean I know I just threw a lot at you what you know , if you don't mind . You know what is your , what is your background . You know how did you kind of start getting into this , this field of just treating people , getting them out of pain and , and you know , decreasing stress and everything else that we do with PERT ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I , you know , I think that the place for me to start would be that I felt that I needed to develop an approach to treatment . When I came up with the idea of PERT I mean , PERT really was something that just came to me , kind of like , you know , in a dream almost , and I had a sense of something , that there was something else I needed to do besides the , the approach that everybody else seemed to be taking . Um , I felt there had to be something more uh , rapid in terms of to the changes that could occur , and more lasting that that the um , the work could , could have an impact on people . And so , as I started being able to to , to to treat people , I was able to get most people out of pain , whatever their issue was . And and they said , you know , over and over again I mean it was a trite statement , but they said you know , why haven't I heard of this before ? Why hasn't my doctor heard of this ? Why isn't this being available now worldwide ? Because the changes that seem to be able to occur with this and this is what we have found after all this time is that there doesn't seem to be anything else that's out there that's as primal as PERT is and as lasting for the benefits .
Speaker 3You know I treated the servicemen that came back from Vietnam . I treated them . They were in terrible shape . I was able to help them in a huge way . So you know , I've found different ways to be able to take PERT and put it into practice , with various concerns and issues that people had . So I mean , the bottom line is that there hasn't been enough awareness , understanding and appreciation of how primal our nervous system is , wired at a reflex level .
Speaker 1All right . Well , if it's okay , can you kind of get down into the details , into the weeds a little bit with that ? You know what do you mean by the reflex level . What do you mean primal ?
Speaker 3level . What do you mean primal ? Well , we're talking about what it is that our circuitry in our nervous system is wired in such a way that we have the ability to use muscles voluntarily , but also we can use not just the muscles but the tendons , tendon reflexes , to be able to basically be rebooting , just like we would reboot a computer . I think the most important analogy would be you know how primal is a computer when you want to reboot it , assuming you know how to reboot it but when you reboot it , if there was a problem where it was not working correctly and you rebooted it and then all of a sudden it was working correctly . That's analogous to the way PERT is , because when we treat people with PERT , many times we're only needing to see them for one session and be able to still make the changes that are necessary for them , and then we give them instructions and what they can do at home to be able to add extra value to what we've already done . Does that help to give you that kind of a background then ?
Speaker 1Yeah , if it's okay . I mean , you know , I love the deep science of stuff , so I mean , if you don't mind , can you kind of give an example ? I mean , when you say reflexes , I mean there's lots of reflexes in the body . Are there particular ones that Pert addresses ? You know what kind of reflexes are we talking about .
Speaker 3Postural you know what kind of reflexes are we talking about ? Postural , you know , primitive . We're looking at deep tendon reflexes .
Understanding Reflexes and Their Role
Speaker 3Where are they located and are they activated by tapping , like we use a tapping either with a reflex hammer or just with our fingertips to see if we can elicit a reaction ? That's what we're trying to do and that was the work of Dr Janet Travell , who was President Kennedy's own personal physician , and I had the opportunity to study directly with Dr Janet Travell before she passed away . She was amazing and the only person that , from what I understand I mean Pert was the only approach that this was offered to her . So I mean it's kind of an interesting background that Pert would have had that kind of influence to be able to have that be part of the work that we're now doing .
Speaker 1Can we get into that man ? I mean , I'm from upstate New York but my mother's side of the family's from Massachusetts . So I grew up huge Kennedy fans . You know , go to the Kennedy Library , go to the compound every summer . You know big Kennedy fans . So Janet Trabell , I knew her name before I met you and ran into Pert . So , if you don't mind , you know . So . How did you come across Dr Travell's work ? Was she using reflexes with President Kennedy or was this something that she found afterwards ? Yeah , do you mind kind of getting into that a little bit ?
Speaker 3Well , I heard about her and I thought well , you know , this is fascinating , that you know this is someone who was directly involved in treating and keeping healthy Kennedy pretty important about this , and so I started researching it and I came to find out that reflexes were able to make changes in the body in ways that people hadn't really considered before . And it became a passion for me to find the answers as to how and why we're wired the way we are on why we're wired the way we are . And I've treated doctors here in the Mayo Clinic . They've had some issues that they couldn't get resolved from any other approach . And so one of the heads of medicine at the Mayo Clinic I said you know , would you like me to see if I can help relieve your symptoms ? And this was in his hand , he was having trouble with his thumb , and I said well , let me see what I can do for you .
Speaker 3And 10 seconds later I said now , try moving it . And he moved it . And he said and his mouth opened . And he said what did you do ? How did you do that ? And I said well , this is , you know , primal reflex release technique . And he said you know . He said I've had other therapists and other doctors try treating this and it hasn't made the effect that you've had . And I said well , I don't think there's anything more primal than PERT . I think it gets down to the level of how we're wired , how our nervous system is wired and how we can use reciprocal influences in treating .
Speaker 1Awesome . Now , before you met Dr Travell , what did you go to school for ? What is kind of your education and things like that . Is that what kind of led you to Dr Travell , or did someone kind of introduce you to her ? I mean , what's the path for that ?
Speaker 3someone kind of introduce you to her . I mean , what's the path for that ? Well , when I was just out of high school and then eventually out of college , I found myself being interested in the way the nervous system works , the way reflexes work , and that came from again from President Kennedy's treatments that he got you know before he passed away . I felt there was something really important about that and I really needed to start using the concepts of it , and that evolved into my own approach to it . But I mean , I think I have the fastest way to release most pain of anything or anyone that I've seen . And again , the key is not just being able to relieve it at the session , the time that we're having the treatment , but to have it be lasting . There's a lot of treatments that people get that they get some temporary benefit from , but in many cases it's only temporary and it's not lasting and they wind up having to look for another answer . Does that make sense ? Yeah , I think .
Speaker 2I have . I'm just going to jump in because I think the question he's asking is how you got started in the field and from what I recall you telling me , it was an old football injury that you had and went to see . Was it a pt ? Yes yes , okay , a physical therapist . Go ahead yeah .
Speaker 3I injured my knee playing high school football . I had a torn meniscus .
Speaker 1I've had five of those .
Speaker 3Thank goodness I haven't had more of them . But anyway I you know the the the issue of a torn meniscus means that you really wind up hobbling around and and I found that by using the PERT techniques I could reboot and be out of pain more easily . You know , I would facilitate , like the hamstring tendon , to see what effect that would have . So I kind of tried different approaches to resolve the problem myself and I never needed to have surgery , which most people who had an injury like mine would have had orthopedic surgery , and also other people would get injections . There were injections available to people but I didn't have to do that either . So you know , I feel very blessed that I had the insights of how I would use PERT .
Speaker 1So it was in high school that you started to get it to spread worldwide . So it was in high school that you started kind of playing around with some of those . It was in high school , after your knee injury , that you started playing around Jeff , I think he's skipping through a few decades .
Speaker 2I can fill in for him . I think you know I have a rare insight into
Emotional Components of Pain
Speaker 2the whole onto our childhood home where he would store all his books . After PT school he said he went into the Navy and then he was running the PTA program at San Diego City College and had his own private practice . He ended up opening several locations and he wouldn't tell people until later . And he wouldn't tell people until later . But he now , you know , gives the credit to Dr Sherrington's work on reflexes . The Integrative Action of the Nervous System is the book from 1901 from Sir Charles Sherrington . Sir Charles Sherrington .
Speaker 2Yep , sir Charles , sherry , yep . So yeah , I think you know .
Speaker 3As far as my childhood , I remember him going to courses for massage , sports medicine , energetic psychology , osteopathic acupuncture chiropractic , you know , like all everything under the sun looking for more answers than what he was able to get from his traditional PT training . So I think that was the tipping point . Was he found Eric Go ahead ? Well , I'm still at the same place , but where I'm , as you were saying , I still have that same passion for finding answers . Sure , that don't seem to be out there and other people don't seem to be making them a part of treatment . So I mean that's my passion and I guess I'm going to be doing it until I'm gone , because it's an important piece of the equation and having treated some of the most difficult cases , particularly with the Marines coming back from Vietnam , you know , I mean it's a blessing to have come up with this and to be able to find ways to continue to improve it .
Speaker 2But for those that are listening , that don't have the history that myself and Jeff have , that want to hear about how the sausage is made .
Speaker 2They want to hear about how you put this together , and you know I mean so I'm hoping we could take a step back and go through . What he was saying is the genesis , the production . You know , I remember when I was in high school and you had more patients on your schedule in the morning than the other therapist had the whole day , and it was behind closed doors . You know it was 15 minutes in and out and people were coming and going with , you know , smiles on their faces and it was . It was like this magic that he was doing in the clinic and you know people were coming in scheduled for surgeries and he was getting them out . You know people were coming in in wheelchairs and they were walking out , and that is what I think a lot of the listeners and maybe viewers you know would appreciate hearing from you , dad , of what was it about Sherrington's work that made you connect the dots and think , you know , I need to take this and use it in my clinic .
Speaker 3Well , it was fortuitous that I was able to extract the work that I had done , the work that I had done even just with animals .
Speaker 3Like one of the dogs we had had a trigger point in the hind leg and I figured out , okay , so I can press on that and get that to release . And then I tried tapping and then that also helped to release the trigger point . And then I started extrapolating okay , if I can do that with animals , I can probably do it with people too . And sure enough , as soon as I started doing it with people people I mean it was like like magic , I mean , and and the word started to get out about you know what I was able to do , and so I started putting the word out that I said you know , if you've had pain or difficulty moving a part of your body and you want to see if you can get that resolved , you know , just come and see me for a single session and let's see what we can do . And the majority of the people that I've treated it only took one session to be able to make the difference .
Speaker 1Wow , now what , john ? What I mean before , you started really kind of creating your own system and using reflexes , you went to school for physical therapy what was kind of traditional physical therapy , back like back in the day when you were in school .
Speaker 3It was strengthening exercises , it was nutrition , you know , there was stretching and Lengthen and strengthen .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's pretty much it , you know sounds sounds like not much has changed , except for the nutrition .
Speaker 3I don't even know if they address nutrition now , to be honest with you , no , but I . But I think that that pretty well gives it the , the genesis from which it all came .
Speaker 1Okay , and then sorry , I'm just trying to circle back a little bit with Dr Travelle's work . You know what I understood and what I've looked into a little bit of her work was correct me . If I'm wrong , I think she was one of the first people to write about trigger points . Trigger points was one of her large things and you just mentioned trigger points on the dog . So you know what is a trigger point . If you don't mind me , you know kind of , because I think sometimes that that phrase gets thrown around a little bit too much . So what is a trigger point ? And then she was using reflexes to release the trigger points . So was she just doing trigger point type therapy ?
Speaker 3Well , she had several modalities that she could do . She could use , you know , the opposite tendon reflex . She could use direct pressure on the trigger point .
Speaker 2But she was most well known for trigger point injections .
Speaker 3right , yes , yeah , and you know she was President Kennedy's own personal physician and that put her in a very unique position and that's something that you know I paid really close attention to and , fortunate enough to you know , study with her and to have some , you know , contact with her , that was really a special time .
Speaker 1It's too bad you couldn't have used Pert on President Kennedy's back . Maybe it helped him a little more .
Speaker 3Yeah , absolutely he needed it little more . Yeah , absolutely he needed it . Problems yeah .
Speaker 2What was it about Janet Travelle's ? She had a when she was doing the injections I know because you talk about that you used to talk about it all the time in the live courses was that , rather than the traditional injection of just into the trigger point , she would inject and then move into a five-star pattern . What was it about that that made you think this is something I should incorporate ?
Speaker 3Well , it turns out that if you just take a needle and stick it in an area that seems to be the trigger point , you're going to get some result , but you may not get the full response that you'd like to have . And that made me realize that we may have to do like a five-point star to find where we would need to have injections done or direct pressure to get the release . To get the release , I had one of the doctors here at the Mayo Clinic . I got to talking to him about his thumb . He was having trouble using his thumb in surgery and I said you know , would you like me to take a look at it and see what I could do ? And he said well , yeah , but I've talked to my orthopedic colleagues and all they recommended is injection . And he said I didn't really want them to inject it . I said well , let me try seeing what I can do . And you know , after doing , do . And you know , after doing , it may have taken me five minutes , maybe 10 minutes at the most , to do .
Speaker 3I had a complete release of the thenar musculature and I said now try moving it any way that you can . And he did , he tried and he said there , no pain . Now he says I . He says the motion feels free and I have no pain . He said how'd you do that ? He says . He says I . I've been to some of my other doctor colleagues and they've tried treating it and they couldn't get it done . And I said well it's , it's something that I've come up with , so that that became really a big genesis for the work .
Speaker 2So if trigger points are defined as a localized area of tightness , tenderness , pain , knot , how would you compare that ? Because we don't traditionally talk about trigger points in PRRT . We refer to them as NSRs nociceptive startle responses . How would you compare the two ? Because I know a lot of people are used to hearing trigger points and think you know , can I treat a trigger point with PERT ? How would you speak to that ?
Speaker 3Well , we can either do direct treatment of trigger points with oftentimes we can just do direct pressure and holding that for a minute or two , and we can even have them try to do some movement while we're doing it and we can see if that is effective without having to do an injection . But oftentimes I'm instructing patients on what they can do at home and one of the most important areas if they have a problem in their hand would be the like for the thumb . It would be the hoku point um , which is in the , the meridian , uh , reflexes and um . It sometimes is something that you know they can just do on their own , and I think it's it's really helpful to have something that you can give people um a program of what they can work on after you see them , because a lot of practitioners treat people and they don't have any follow-up on what they're going to do to have them participate in trying to get more , even more improvement .
Speaker 1Now you mentioned , eric , the NSRs and with the startle reflex , that's been a continuous theme through all the levels of PERT that I've studied . You know what , john , what kind of was the genesis of you looking
Primitive Reflexes and Neurological Effects
Speaker 1at that reflex , you know , and start incorporating and developing your own modalities to address that , because that's a pretty game changing reflex to work on man and that's a pretty game changing reflex to work on man and that's a pretty prevalent one and I don't know majority of people , I don't know if you have a percentage of people you would say that would need to work on that . But you know how did what kind of steered you to start looking at that particular reflex and start doing stuff for it ?
Speaker 3I'll be , I'll be candid with you and and and and I don't have a better answer but a lot of what I do it's work that comes to me intuitively . Some of that comes to me during the night and I'll wake up in the morning and I'll be surprised that something kind of popped into my head during the night um , I think that you know it's it's . It's the fact that I see this as my life's work and it's different than if you just are somebody that's , you know , treating people , but you don't really see the work as being something special and something that is , is primal and , in my case , something I feel like I want to have this be something that lasts , even when I'm gone I've heard you say the most other practitioners I was just going to jump in and say I've heard you say to live students in the past that a lot of the times there is an emotional component of pain that needs to be addressed .
Speaker 3Yes .
Speaker 2And with the startless maneuver , you're addressing the emotional component that is attached to the pain or trauma . Correct , yes , so yeah , if it came to you when you're sleeping , it's probably because you fell asleep with one of Travelle's books on your chest , but I mean , you know he had a huge library . So I , what is it , dad , that you've seen from your patients past ? You know past patients that you've seen that you noticed that a lot of them had that emotional connection to the pain that you felt like you needed to address to the pain that you felt like you needed to address .
Speaker 3Well , you know , when I'm examining them and then treating them , I speak to them about have they had any stress-related issues occurring recently ? And most of the time they'll say yes and I'll explain to them that you know these are trigger point areas and that they were originally named that by Dr Janet Travell , who was President Kennedy's personal physician . Janet Travell , I mean , it kind of puts things in a different perspective . And then I also have I make sure that people understand that I don't pretend to practice by seeing them three times a week for three , four , six weeks or whatever . This is going to be something that is either going to make a difference or it isn't . If it doesn't make a difference , then we talk about where we go from there . But the majority of cases they don't have to do those other things .
Speaker 2So do you . I mean , you always preach about the importance of a detailed history when you're seeing patients for the first time .
Speaker 3Right .
Speaker 2Do you feel like there are other indicating factors or symptoms or things that would demonstrate to you that someone has a startle response ? I know that you've talked about flashbacks in the past . What other you know ? Would it be diaphragm influence ? Would it be , you know , raised shoulders ? You know you talk about upregulation . What other areas are you looking into ?
Speaker 3Yeah , well , you know , one of the most important ones is the clenching reflex .
Speaker 3How many patients don't get examined for the masseters and the temporalis to see if they have trigger points ?
Speaker 3And if they have trigger points , then the entire autonomic nervous system is going to be sympathetically upregulated 24-7 . And that's not something that people really pay much attention to , but it's so important that we should be able to palpate muscles in the body and not have it be tender , swollen , thickened , any of those kinds of symptoms , and oftentimes people are not examined to see whether they have any of these patterns that are still remaining still remaining . I had the misfortune of having to treat the Marines that came back from Vietnam who had really serious neurological injuries and some of that would be permanent . But I had the ability to use PERT to be able to help many of them in dramatic ways , and they would go back and tell their physician about you know the result that they had , and that's how we got me started treating doctors as well , and that was very unique to be able to have physicians coming to me for treatment and then they wanted me to treat their children and their spouse because of the results that I was having .
Speaker 1That's awesome . Now we have talked before . I've had the good fortune I don't remember this was some years ago asking you about your work with looking at primitive reflexes . You know , uh , the morrow , the uh , the asymmetric tonic neck reflex , the babinski . You know the , the primitive reflexes , and I I've done several podcasts with one of the leading researchers in the world , dr robert malilo , on reflexes . But no , and I don't even know how much you've looked into this or how much you even know you've had an effect on this .
Speaker 1But , um , your work and some of the um , some of the techniques you've created specifically address these reflexes that are so prevalent , especially now with kids and with neurodivergence any of these umbrella phrases that get there . There's usually a primitive reflex or several primitive reflexes , and you've created techniques that address it in seconds , which is pretty amazing . So that's a really great tool that has been in my pocket that I know other people in the world of neurology don't have because it takes . It can take a while to try to work on integration of these reflexes , and I've done videos not showing the techniques but doing literally seconds after , before and after , testing the reflex , doing the pert technique and then retesting the reflex and it's gone .
Speaker 1Um , you know how much have you looked into if any , uh for for the listeners and viewers um primitive reflexes and how your work can address that ? Because right now , uh , you know not trying to get into politics , but autism is a big thing that's being discussed now and why there's so many reasons for it , but nonetheless there's usually primitive reflexes are also involved with any kind of brain asymmetry and things like that . And so have you gone down that rabbit hole ? I mean I'm sure you have . You know , I've heard tales of your library .
Speaker 3Actually I haven't , because my focus and my interest is in the musculoskeletal system and so I don't go down some of these other rabbit holes . I mean , there's lots of them out there that you could go down , but I chose what I was more comfortable with , which is the neuromuscular system , and then , of course , with Dr Janet Travell's influence , following her way of assessment and treatment , with the idea that , you know , I mean , she was the only one that could make a huge difference with President Kennedy as far as his issues . So I've limited myself by not going down some of these other rabbit holes .
Speaker 1Well , I feel like you have maybe I don't know , I mean you have and hopefully I'm not giving too much away here but some of your techniques you address the Babinski reflex , you address the Palmer grasp reflex . You know you address some of these reflexes and I know you do it as far
Athletic Performance Applications
Speaker 1as looking at a pain , but it decreases the primitive reflex that they have , you know . So I mean , indirectly , you've done , you've created things that some of the leading people that I try to study for this stuff have not even thought of . You know . So I was just interested if you've even done that . But that's yeah , those are game-changing techniques and I mean I use them all the time because they're so simple and so powerful , uh , with people , um , particularly the , uh , the planner , I'm proud of you and appreciative of you for what you've done to get my work out there and to have it have an influence on people's lives .
Speaker 1I mean it's powerful .
Speaker 3You're going to find in the future that you're going to be considered a guru for having developed something that had not been seen before and had not been used the way we use it , and it's going to give you a sense of feeling that you're . You know you're turning a page that nobody else has thought to turn the page to look where else they need to go .
Speaker 1Well , thank you for those kind of words and , to be honest with you , john , I am just someone like you , just trying to find answers on how to solve these problems . That's really it . And I don't know . There's too many people that I've come across that are just mechanical people and they don't believe in reflexes or they don't believe in neurology and things . And then you have just the neurology people , but they don't use reflexes or they only address certain reflexes but not other ones .
Speaker 1What I love about your work and what I love about Pert , it's this amalgam of just you've , you've . There's no stone unturned with , with what you've done , and I mean you're in Pert's incorporated things from Chinese , chinese acupuncture , it's incorporating meridian lines and it's incorporating so many different things . And you know , I thought I knew about the human body before I took level one and I just remember being like holy shit , I don't know anything , like , wow , you know , I thought I knew the muscular system and then I'm learning about all the muscles of the face and their roles and you know the Omaha highway that I've never heard of and how it's influenced in the shoulder and like what the hell ? Um , you know , okay , so I got to do stuff for for for the neck and for the throats , that can address the shoulder , and just the connections you've made um with PERT is really powerful and really really awesome . Um , so I'm sorry , I don't mean to . I just want to give you your flowers , john , with , with , with that man .
Speaker 1Man , because I'm fortunate because of this podcast and because of some things on social media , I get people asking me questions from all over the world , and Hurt is one that's been coming up a lot more and I tell them all look online , it's worth the time , it's worth the time . It's really powerful . Study it . It's worth the time . It's really , it's really powerful . It's , study it . You know it's , it's really powerful . I don't really know how else to describe it other than it's it's fast and it's effective and it lasts . You know , sorry , I just had to go off on that little tangent of giving you your flowers now , just curious .
Speaker 3I want to thank you for what you just said . It means a lot to me to hear you say that and to know that you're going to be using PERT and you may be coming up with some approaches . I would appreciate hearing from you if you have some findings , as you're using the PERT approach , the PERT approach , and then if you find you , you know , tweak , tweak it a little bit .
Speaker 1I'd like to hear from you because I would be great to have that be something as a collaboration with what we're already working on now ? Absolutely , you know , just curious . One of the large pieces that you talk about in PERT is addressing the autonomic nervous system and when I studied Hans Selye several years ago , I read his book Stress of Life and then I started looking to Robert Sapolsky's work on why zebras don't get ulcers , and very interested in stress and a lot of times they talk about it as far as this just global effect on the body , but there is also local autonomic responses and we kind of talked about that with the NSRs and trigger points . That's somewhat what that is . But I'm very interested in you know why you started looking into specifically the autonomic nervous system and I know we wanted to . I told you I wanted to talk about a bit about your past , but I'm just curious now , or at least you know , when you stopped practicing , what have you seen as a as far as a change in , in in the patients that you've seen or Eric's seen and stuff like that , as far as their autonomic nervous systems ?
Speaker 1Cause , in the little bit I've been studying , you know , per , for these eight years , more and more people need an autonomic reboot . Man , it's , it's crazy , the , just , and they , they don't even know the stimulation and the stress and you know it's why I have the lights off and I got my uh , you know , my blue light blocking screensaver on on my computer and I should have my glasses on . Um , you know just , but just the . You know the , the , the autonomic nervous system , and how and how , uh , how powerful it is and the importance of of down regulating it .
Speaker 1Um , you know , because the number one thing , if , if nothing else , when I get someone off the table , when I do uh , pert , is they just say they feel just relaxed . So I'm just curious , you know what kind of um again , you know , I , I , and correct me if I'm wrong when you were back in traditional physical therapy school , things were mechanical , right , we're kind of talking about . It was lengthened and strengthened . When did you start looking at ? I mean , you mentioned the tender reflexes , but when did you start looking at more so the autonomic system , nervous system , route system , nervous system route .
Speaker 3Oh , that's probably been maybe a dozen or more years in the past . What I found was and the lower ribs , and you're checking for crepitus . If somebody is having a sympathetic , upregulated state and you strum their ribs and assuming that they don't say that's ticklish , that's an important piece of the equation that the diaphragm needs to be rebooted . So many people are holding tension in their nervous system autonomic nervous system because the diaphragm is so primal system . Because the diaphragm is so primal , and if you strum their lower ribs on both sides to see whether there's crepitus there , that will give you an indication and the patient will be surprised that you were able to do something like that . And what you have them do is take a deep breath in , blow it all out . As soon as there's no more air , they pinch their nose about , close and blow hard for 10 seconds and oftentimes that resets this whole process with the diaphragm and it's a fluid on the out of dynamic nervous system no , that's a good technique .
Speaker 1I'd use that that makes sense no , yeah , 100 . I actually use that technique a lot with my adult clients . Uh , my nine o'clock class which I had today , we'll do that . Um , we'll also do that . What isn't that also part of the scaling release ? Sorry for giving away a little something , but , um , right , but yeah , so we'll do that because I have . I have some ladies that have some neck restrictions and so we'll do some per techniques before during our warm-ups , to be honest with you , some self-home exercise ones to get their neck mobility .
Speaker 3And when you're doing the neck , have them start to turn their head one direction and at the same time have their eyes go opposite . So if they're turning their head to the right , have them take their eyes to the left . You want to have those two occurring at the same time . That kind of acts as a reset .
Speaker 1Is that part of the conjugate gaze ?
Speaker 3Yes .
Speaker 1Right , so when did you ? Because I never heard of that before until I took level one and I bought their courses right away too . Anything you've pretty much have ever put in a course or mentioned . I've tried to go down the rabbit hole of going . So , if you don't mind for the listeners , just explain , if you can , a little bit of what conjugate gaze is , because that's been pretty interesting to have people do one thing and then their eyes have to go in the opposite , and I've used it for headache releases too with people .
Speaker 3Yeah , it seems like we're wired in such a way that we can benefit from finding the pattern of restriction and then going opposite of that and doing that periodically . Sometimes the best time to do it is before you go to sleep , at night , when you're in bed , and then in the morning when you wake up to do it . So if there's only two times a day you do it , those are two of the most important times that you're practicing that maneuver .
Speaker 2Like it yeah that's Dr Vincent Perry's work , out of Connecticut . He's a chiropractor and a published author and he reached out , probably 10 years , maybe more than 10 years ago , saying that at that point he just had the Conjugate Gaze Adjustive Technique book . At that point he just had the Conjugate Gaze Adjustive Technique book and , dad being the book guru , he found his book and started reading it and reached out and said you know the moral reflex and fight or flight response to you know address , symptoms and that's where that came from .
Speaker 1Yeah , as I was saying earlier , you know , what I love about Pert is , john , there's no stone unturned with techniques that he's tried to collect and incorporate . So you know , that was interesting when I remember level one , particularly with with uh Tom in in Canton Ohio , uh , doing exercise where we're now incorporating the eyes , and just how much better I felt after doing that and that's I was like okay , cause I started before that I was studying vision training , sports vision training , so I was
Diaphragm Reset and Autonomic Regulation
Speaker 1very interested with the eyes and the power that has , and so that was an interesting technique . But yeah , no , I love again incorporating you kind of stack a lot of techniques in PERT and that's extremely powerful . Before I let you go here , john , I don't want to take too much longer , curious if you even know the answer to this .
Speaker 1But with the whole , because what I mentioned , you were still in that house in san diego and you still had that library that all the , all the instructors were bragging about , because I guess level five used to always be in your , your garage , in your library , and they would always just talk about how it was a basketball court and the books went up to the ceiling . Just curious if you even know what is the most rare or and or expensive book you ever you ever bought .
Speaker 2I've tried to find .
Speaker 1I've tried to find Janet Travell's books and I can't find them to purchase anywhere .
Speaker 3Yeah , I think they're probably all out of print at this point . I don't know that anyone is trying to keep that work alive . That's sad . If you contact Eric , I'll look and see what I can find that might guide you with what you're looking for . Okay , invite you with what you're looking for .
Speaker 1Oh , I was just curious Is there like did you buy books from like the 1800s ? That kind of discussed a certain technique that you're interested in Do you remember ? Sorry , I know , I'm asking . I haven't You've probably bought so many books you probably don't remember , and there was no . Amazon back then either . So , I don't know . Yeah , I don't know , yeah , I know .
Speaker 2Jeff from experience when they when they moved from San Diego to Phoenix he's retired now and living north of Phoenix near family and we filled two containers full of library of books for the library and now he has a four car garage that has been turned into library stacks and it's climate controlled garage that has been turned into library stacks and it's climate controlled , and you know he still has a lot of his books . So I think it'd be fun to to go and shoot an updated video to be able to share with you and the audience . Because , yeah , it's , it's still the bookcases , but they exist now in a different setting . So I , before we go , jeff , I was hoping since , since dad , you know , is used to seeing his patient population is , you know , was what a traditional physical therapist would see , and I know that a lot of your listeners , you know , are more athletic trainers strength and conditioning , um , so what are you seeing from an athletic performance standpoint when you're using PERT ?
Speaker 2Because , you know , not everybody is looking for somebody to . I mean , a therapist like dad is looking to get somebody out of pain . And I mean , before we even mention that , I want to give you your kudos because a lot of trainers would be intimidated to approach this and use it because you know it's not seen as something that that might increase athletic performance .
Speaker 1So well , thanks , yeah , I was again . One of the reasons that steered me to Pert was when I moved to Pittsburgh , because I'm from upstate New York . There's chiropractors everywhere . I mean you throw a rock out the window right now , hit three chiropractic practices . I mean they're just everywhere and people here go to chiropractors for everything . If you have a cold , if you have a hangnail , anything , they're going to go to a chiropractor .
Speaker 1And I was just like , come on , man , like what's what's going on ? And the best ability we have as coaches and trainers is keeping our athletes eligible , keeping them healthy and even for little things . Hey , my groin feels tight , I'm gonna go to my chiropractor . Hey , my shoulder feels tight . I was like , okay , man , I gotta start . What are some ? What are some powerful things that I can do anyways ?
Speaker 1And that's what's steering me down hurt and I would say it's kind of um , kind of a mixed bag based off of sports , to be honest with you . So , like for football instance , what I have noticed with my football players and I've done hurt is they need like global down regulating more than more than other sports , and I'm not saying other athletes and sports don't need that , but like the volume of work that football does and the constant intensity in which they do and they don't rest . There's not a lot of rest . They don't understand . Coaches and trainers around here don't understand the stress adaptation . You know how that's supposed to work . It's just stress , stress , stress , stress . And then take the weekend off and it's stress , stress , stress . And it's just five days on top of the high academic loads that they have . And so when I've done um , hurt it's to football players , it's just like wow . And I did . If you remember , several years ago this might have been like five or six years ago I made a little hurt .
Speaker 1Video testimonials of people and the one particular that stands out to this day is I was just doing one of the very primal exercise you know maneuvers and all of a sudden he started twitching on the table , just like , could not control , didn't know what it was , it just happened . And it happened like two or three times . I'm like Holy crap , what was that ? And he goes . I have no idea . And then when he set up the down regulation that he had , he turned pale white , he got dizzy as all hell and he had to sit on the table for like 10 minutes . It was just like , and I find and I'm not not all my football players have that same response and they don't act like that but just like the down regulation that they need is just crazy because of just how much they're doing , especially here in Western PA Now with , like my soccer athletes for instance and I have a lot of soccer athletes , boys and girls they just have such tightness all the time .
Speaker 1They're just always feeling tight . The calves are always tight , groin's always tight , it's just tight , tight , tight and it's just I think it's just upregulated , you know regulation of their autonomic system . So I'll do a sartorius release real quick or I'll do a a couple groin releases and tfl , glute , med , and all of a sudden everything just feels better . It's just like they're again . They're just such large volumes . It's it's what I'm seeing now , regardless of sport is just the volume of work that they're doing is so much that they just always feel tight and they never just feel good , they never just feel relaxed . So PERT has been a great tool to just get them to do that .
Speaker 1So a lot of my athletes I always say my athletes get 49% , say in everything they do in the gym , but I get 51 , but I want their input , I want to know how they're feeling , I want to know what's going on . And so they'll come in and just , jeff , can we just have a stretch ? I'm feeling really tight , all right . Well , you know , the question is , is it mechanical tightness , is it neurological tightness ? Usually it's neurological tightness , all right . So we'll get the table out and then we'll do real fast , five minutes of Pert .
Speaker 1We just call it , the kids just call it voodoo , we just do voodoo . All right , let's do the voodoo . Get the voodoo table out . So we do voodoo and they get up and they just feel so much better . And then , you know that's usually it , and then they'll do some stretches and stuff , but they , they just feel so much better , just off of the quick chip chop you know of of some of the pert techniques that you teach . So what I'm seeing with the high school and college kids here is just over volumization , over-upregulation of their nervous system , combined with shitty lifestyles in front of screens , poor eating and sleep habits , and they're just yeah , they just feel tight all the time , and just hurt allows them to just . Oh , wow , I feel so much better , I feel just , I feel loose , and I didn't even stretch and just , they just feel , yeah , they just feel better even stretch and just that .
Speaker 3They just feel . Yeah , they just feel better . Something else , something else to check on them . If you haven't been doing it is to strum the ribs from six through nine . Have you been ? Have you been looking at that ?
Speaker 1yeah , they're very ticklish and I think it was frank that said tickles on the same spectrum as pain . Right , I learned , I took that from purse . I like , I like that . So that's why I try to tell them too . They're always usually super ticklish and very guarded .
Speaker 3Whether they know it or not , they'll lay there and they'll cross their arms and they're covering their ribs they should be able to have you strum their ribs six through nine ribs and and not have them react to it . It should just be something that they feel what you're doing but that you're not eliciting a reflex response . When you're doing that kind of palpation , and when we think about how important the ribs are with a diaphragm attaching to that , how primal the diaphragm is , it's a pretty big piece of the puzzle .
Speaker 1Oh , absolutely , I've told the story to you guys before and to listeners , and I've told this even to there's this one particular . He's a physical therapist what he is on social media , but he's a guy in my industry that is all mechanical , everything's mechanical , and he does a lot of plantar fasciitis , does a lot of shoulders and he does a lot of plantar fasciitis , does a lot of shoulders and he does a lot of achilles . And I was working with a girl's soccer team and this we were in the weight room and the one girl this one girl came up to me , said coach , my achilles feels really tight right now . It's kind of aching . You know , can we do something for ? It said okay , so we just , okay here , land the floor real quick .
Speaker 1I did palpation , I did you know the one minute floor real quick . I did palpation , I did you know the one minute exam real quick and her pelvis was , was on the line . And then some other girls came up and asked me a question . So I was like here , how about you do the slinky stretch ? You do a couple , you know Tom's technique , and then I'll be right back and 60 seconds later I turn around . She's up off the floor .
Speaker 1I didn't tell her to get up off the floor and I said , hey , you know , you want me to , you want to work on you'll see what's going on the achilles . She goes no , it feels better already and I was just like , okay , that's pretty cool , because there's some people that just think , hey , just address the achilles . Well , you know , and what you've taught , and things like that . There's things up and down the stream and I have other stories of of things like that . But yeah , pur is so fast , it's so powerful and it sticks . And again , I don't know if this , I'm going to say it anyways before I let you guys go here .
Speaker 1What I also love about PUR is you're not afraid to say , hey , we don't , it doesn't fix everything , and you guys teach like there are things to look for if it doesn't stick , and not a lot of modalities that I have seen talk about that or are willing to admit that you know and so , if you don't mind , we can , if it's okay . Just , you know , if PERT doesn't seem to work for a person or does at least get them out of pain by 50% in the first session and I use your quote what treat and foresee no more unless you've come up with a new quote and I'll have to steal , use your quote . What treat for see no more , unless you've come up with a new quote and I'll have to steal . Um , you know , treat for see no more , or , or , or , was it a , c and three or the fourth one's on me , or something like yeah , better in three or the fourth one's on me .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah right I'm trying to steal your quotes all the time um you know what are the ? What was it five ? What are the kind of the five things for the reason why pert might not work ? Work , if you don't mind me asking .
Speaker 2I mean at level two we go through . You know four dozen reasons that could be . You know contributing factors to look into . I know that huge ones are diet , sleep , nutrition , nutrition . Dad , I think from the precipitating and perpetuating factors was there one that stuck out to you that you noticed when someone was having results but it wasn't holding , that you would guide people . I know magnesium . You know , like you used to always talk about magnesium .
Speaker 1Yes .
Speaker 2Are there any others that stick out ?
Speaker 1to you . I think I , I think I bought that book magnesium miracle based off of your recommendation .
Speaker 3Good for you . Yeah Well , the the the other . The other thing is to teach them to do the , to reboot the diaphragm because the diaphragm is almost always involved in people that are having issues that aren't getting resolved and to have them take a deep breath in , blow all the air out when there's no more left , pinch the nose closed , blow hard for one second , have them repeat that throughout the day . Best to do it first thing in the morning when they wake up , last thing at night before they go to sleep , but they can do it during the day and you can strum their ribs six through nine to see if they have crepitus there , which which would mean that the diaphragm is in a upregulated state , hyperactive state .
Speaker 2It may be useful , jeff . I mean this is a whole other discussion , I think . But you know , we teach . You know balancing parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system and you know we're not really considering from an evolutionary perspective that we're not really adapted to dealing with the amount of notifications . You know texts , emails , like all the smart stuff that that , like I mean , dad used to teach in the past that like he never had a cell phone , he still didn't have a cell phone .
Speaker 2And you know like now it's like every app that you download , you you just automatically agree to notifications and that buzzing that you constantly get it's , you know , even though it can be somewhat distracting , you know like it's , it's still pinging your nervous system and you know , so I think , that the changes that we can have if somebody goes back into a dysfunctional setting , I mean we , we do teach , you know that the importance of of going from table into function , into form , you know treating in gravity and standing in seated , you know Um , so I think that that that's a big consideration is that a lot , of , a lot of outside influences that we can't really control .
Speaker 2And I mean from my perspective , like I turned off ESPN notifications recently because I was like I don't really . I mean , I love the Padres and everything , but I don't need to know everything that's going on in the whole world of sports . And so I think , dad , do you have any feedback ? I know we talked about that recently . From evolutionary perspective , we're wired to be looking out for these common fight or flight situations and what is happening in daily life , in modern daily life , that is going to have these kind of triggering responses .
Speaker 3Well it all comes down to , is the diaphragm in a sympathetically upregulated state or not ? And if you strum the ribs six through nine and there's crepitus there , then I think that's going to have some influence on their autonomic nervous system .
Speaker 1Gotcha . Well , listen , boys , I don't want to take too much of your time . I'm very grateful . Thank you so much for taking the time to jump on the call and talk . Go through some history with us , john . Yeah , eric , if you ever do a little podcast or video of , of going through John's books , that would be really cool for the practitioners and the family , cause I would be very interested to see what , what gems , john has hidden away . You know if he's got books from the 1800s or 1700s , I'm sure you know from , you know sir Isaac Newton , I'm sure he's got , john's got some stuff or something like that . But , gentlemen , thank you so much for the time and I really appreciate it .
Speaker 3Thank you .
Speaker 1Sure .
Closing Thoughts and Resources
Speaker 2And for all the listeners . Jeff , if you don't mind if I throw this out , I'm a one man show . You know that runs this company still and I love to hear from people with questions . I answer all the emails personally we have . If anybody's interested , we have a free preview program called the starter series . That's available , you know , on our website for 30 days . Just go to theprrtcom and click the big orange button that says get started now they can check it out . There's , uh , nine techniques that they can play around with and it gives them some some background and and everything . And you know we're we're open to trainers , strength and conditioning , you know , massage therapists , chiropractors , pts , acupuncturists we just had a phd join us . So anybody that's that's interested in in working with the body and the nervous system and helping people get better , we'd love to have you .
Speaker 1Awesome , cool . Yeah , I'll , I'll try to . I'll share show notes , I'll put links to the PERT website and schedules and everything like that . But , gentlemen , again thank you so much for your time . Thank you , jeff , appreciate it .
Speaker 3Nice .