2026 Sport Movement Skill Conference Review

I’m back from a short hiatus with a field report from the Emergence Movement Conference, where debates replace slides and coaches actually talk face to face. I lay out why the real argument underneath ecological dynamics is capacity versus transfer, and why the athlete’s individual bottlenecks decide what works. 
• why the Emergence conference format creates better conversations than social media 
• ecological dynamics explained through perception-action coupling and constraints 
• why I think “it depends” beats one true training system 
• capacity versus transfer as the hidden core of most coaching arguments 
• a sprint start case study using timing and coordination work 
• organism constraints like proprioception, vestibular input, and ocular motor control 
• why right-left confusion can signal neurological organisation issues 
• when general vision training helps and when it hits a ceiling 
• primitive reflex integration and “basement” work as a bridge to better sport practice 
• combine prep, game speed, and why pro athletes often avoid live drills 
If you guys have any more questions, you want to learn more about the seminar, reach out to me

Transcript

Back From Hiatus And Why

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hey Jeff here back with another episode of Down the Rabbit Hole. And uh first I want to apologize for the hiatus. Um you know, I've been actually quite busy. Summer started, school ended relatively early for uh Pittsburgh. Uh and so that's been uh that's that's shifted my business hours, that's shifted my workload and and schedule. Um, and also uh I just got back a little more than a week ago from Minnesota where I was at the uh Emergence Movement Conference. Uh this is I believe the ninth year they've been doing this conference up in Minnesota with the guys from Emergence. Uh we've had a couple or actually three of their team members on uh previous podcasts, Greg Sauders, Tyler Yerberry, and Coach Javi. Um awesome guys, man. So when Tyler, after I did the podcast with Tyler, he was kind enough to reach out to me to ask to uh to speak at

Why The Emergence Conference Matters

SPEAKER_00 1:00

their conference this year. And um this was this was the second time I've been asked, and it was I mean, I this is I'd say this even if I wasn't speaking at this conference, guys. This is my favorite conference uh on physical preparation because, in my opinion, we're talking about things that really matter, and that's performance on the field versus most strength munitioning conferences where we're talking about tendon loading and hamstring rehabilitation and warm-ups and you know squats and sets and reps and shit, which don't get me wrong, have their place, but it's like I don't know. I I want to talk about things that matter, and I love talking about movement. Um, I love talking about motor learn, love talking about motor control. Um, so dude, yeah, when Tyler was kind enough to ask me, like, yes, the answer was just quickly yes. Um, and every year they've been doing this conference, uh, they've changed kind of the motif of every year's conference, which has been awesome. So uh when I spoke in 2019, um their their idea was to try to have bring together both sides of kind of the movement equation. You know, you got your ecological dynamics side, and then you got your more traditional coaching side. And it was presentation-based, and um, you know, right at that time the movement, the movement, the movie uh Civil War for Marvel came out with Iron Man versus Captain America. And so Sean Mishka, who is you know the head uh from my understanding, the head of emergence, he uh that was kind of their whole motif was bringing in both sides and and debating it, kind of talking about it. So that was awesome, and I had a great time, but they felt, from my understanding, they felt that it didn't really get to what they wanted to do, which was more of a conversation versus just a presentation style. So this year their motif was a debate, which is hugely refreshing, in my opinion, uh, for just about all fields, but specifically specifically uh physical preparation, because we're not really no one's debating. We we have these bickers on social media, we have these fucking people that were just like comment and rage bait and all this stuff, but like let's actually have conversations, let's get face to face and have conversations, and that's what they did this year. I absolutely loved it. I jumped at the opportunity when Tyler presented it to me, and um yeah, dude, it was I I had a great time, I really did. So um what it the the layout this year was they brought in people to debate their their staff, their team, um, on opposing views or what they felt was opposing views. And Tyler wanted to discuss with me um because I when I presented 2019, I had some opposing views. Now, I want to preface that I absolutely love ecological dynamics. I have so many of their books on a constraints-led approach in dynamical systems theory and ecological psychology and um direct perception and all of Bernstein on uh movement variability. And I I I've read a lot of their books, probably not to the extent as them, but I I I I've read it because I'm very interested in it and I love it, hence why I've brought on so many previous podcast members that that believe in it. But for me, I just don't believe it's everything. Um, I don't believe anything is 100%. I believe there's usually a gray zone more than it's just black and white. Uh, and that's what I wanted to discuss. Uh so the way the conference was set up was Tyler and I started, uh, where it was I sat on one side of the table, Tyler sat on the other. Uh, we had about I think it was an hour to debate, to be honest with you. It felt like 10 minutes. I really wish my only knock on the conference was I wish Tyler and I could speak longer. Uh, that's that's really it. I I felt like I didn't get nearly what I wanted to off my chest and my thoughts, and I didn't feel like I I answered everyone's questions fully. Um, but we had an hour and we sat across from the table from each other, and they moved everyone's chairs around us. So it was kind of like we were in this uh octagon uh like arena where they sat pretty close. I would say there's probably my guess would probably be around 60 to 70 people there uh from all over. I met a gentleman who flew in from Italy, people from the West Coast, East Coast, Florida, Texas. I mean, there's people from everywhere, Canada, uh, Montreal, like it was a really, really diverse group of people. It was awesome. They everyone was super friendly, um, super open. Um, I I I again I absolutely loved it. I loved loved the whole the whole

The Debate Setup And Atmosphere

SPEAKER_00 5:48

vibe. So um I was curious going into it because I want to prepare. I'm I'm one of those people like I try to over-prepare for things like this. Going against Tyler, who's a super well-versed, really smart individual who has a PhD in this shit, you know, I didn't want to seem like a dummy. And on top of it, I wanted to, you know, listen, I it was a away game. I'm going to their field, I'm going to their environment, I'm going to their conference. And I'm not necessarily looking to convert anybody to to this. I was just like hoping to, hey, you know, I've never thought about that way. Or that, hey, that's a different perspective on things. Or like, hey, you know what? I I I've seen those things, and I just never really thought about it that way. You know, that's all I wanted to do. Um, so before, you know, let me let me specify. So

Ecological Dynamics In Plain English

SPEAKER_00 6:40

anyone who may not be familiar with ecological dynamics, you know, it's ecological dynamics is a combination of kind of two disciplines. You got dynamical systems theory, which is a branch of mathematics that studies how a complex system behaves and changes over time, uh, how patterns emerge from the process of self-organization, and then uh, you know, how behavior is regulated within uh without being regulated is is kind of their their thing. And then you have ecological psychology and the use of direct perception. And so how your perception of your environment is what shapes your behavior, essentially. And I hope I explained that well enough. So you they believe uh that you cannot separate perception from action. You you know their tagline is you got to keep it coupled. So an athlete's movement and perception on the field is specific to that. So doing anything outside of it, they don't believe transfers. So, for example, doing vision training where you're tracking balls on a computer screen or touching lights on a board, they feel has zero transfer. Um doing movement agility drills enclosed where the coach is instructing it, or they're going to a line, or they're going to an agility ladder or a cone, they feel does not change it because behavior affords or changes behavior. Your movements on the field, dictated by my movements, dictate on the field, dictated by what is happening, what we're trying to do from a technical technical, tactical standpoint, where the bar ball is, whether I'm trying to close space, create space, what have you. So anything that looks or is removed from that, they don't believe, transfers. And so from a constraints-led approach, which is a uh a model of motor learning, right? We we're constantly constrained by the environment. So the field, uh, the the you know, depending on what sport you're playing, saying soccer, 11 on 11, um, constrained by that, constrained by the task, so we can only use our feet or you can't use your arms. Um, and you know, you have your positions in which you have to operate, and you know, there's only so much bandwidth in which some teams and some people are allowed to move, and then the organism, right? So, how well they perceive their environment uh and their their ability to uh uh pick up, be attuned to the information that's in front of them and to uh uh uh pick up information to see uh affordances for action. Affordances affordances is another word for opportunities for for movement. And so uh Tyler and I were to debate on the nature of repetition, but to be honest with you, that that's what Sean had put us down for. But uh Tyler and I, through conversations, didn't really know what that meant. So we you know, Tyler gave me the freedom to go where we wanted now uh with it. So Tyler, so the way it was set up was I had a five-minute opening speech, Tyler had a five-minute opening speech, I had two minutes rebuttal, Tyler had two minutes rebuttal, and then it was open to conversation where uh what they did an awesome job with was giving everyone that was in attendance was given note cards, and they were allowed to write down any questions they had and then pass it up front, and then Tyler and I would read the note cards and try to answer the questions or the topics that they had. Um, again, absolutely loved the idea of this. Um, what's fun is again, having known Tyler now for I don't know, seven years, having gotten to know him more personally through those seven years, having him on the podcast. He's he's a gentleman. He is an awesome guy. Uh, he really is just a very, very kind, kind person. So I knew it was the debate, the conversation wasn't gonna get you know heated. We agree on probably 90% of things. Uh what I wanted to do is talk about the 10. Um, and so I you know, where I feel the disconnect is from the ecological dynamic side to removing from the environment, uh decoupling uh things is in its capacity and and under and the science of transfer. So,

Capacity Versus Transfer As The Core

SPEAKER_00 11:02

really my takeaway, one of my takeaways from this overall conference was we're really debating the difference between capacity and transfer. Now, when I say capacity, I'm talking about right the the ability to adapt, the underlying mechanisms that help us form our attunement, our inform our perception, inform our ability to again perceive and to act on the field. So for instance, one of the major conversations uh was with Tony Holler and Coach Javi, and then Tony Velletti and Sean Mishka on speed development and track speed, particularly for football players, was really what they were talking about, since both Tony and Tony work a lot with football. Um and that is a conversation of capacity, where the debate was is arguing does capacity always transfer to sport performance. So, you know, an example, just you staying with speed is does getting an athlete track speed equal or or improving their combine numbers always improve their performance on the field? And we know the answer is no, you know, for but but but my my take is it depends, right? So where I believe, this is my belief on all of this stuff, is it depends, right? I I don't believe in any one side, I think it all works, I think you need it all, they're all tools. Uh, I think understanding the individual, right? So a lot of times with constraints-led approach and equal dynamics, they're always talking about um constraining the environment, constraining the task. But uh that stuff is great, but that's that's assuming that the athletes have the perceptual and physical abilities to still take advantage of the affordances or to perceive the affordances in the environment. And so my big army was on the individual. And hey, you know, not everyone perceives information the same, whether it's uh a coaching cue or it's uh, you know, uh uh a verbal instruction or or metaphors or whatever it is we're talking about, uh visual, uh vestibular proprioception, these are all things that lead into the organism and affect their performance on the field. So I went at it. My conversation in debate with Tyler was I wanted to talk about more of the neurological and perceptual aspects of how these are these can be missing, these can be governors on the car, these could be restrictions on the ability to perform. And sometimes you have to take it out of context to work on the lower hanging fruit to build a better capacity, to then work it back into the environment in which it emerges. I don't believe, and I've I've been blessed to present now for over 10 years on uh sports vision training or perception or whatever vernacular you want to go with, and how I believe in the transfer of training and the classification system in which Andatoli Bondertruck created, in which there is kind of four components to transfer. There's general, special preparatory, special developmental, and then competitive. Right. And so, where are we? Who are we talking about? Uh, what are we trying to achieve? Depends, on my opinion, on where are we on that transfer of training model. And in previous podcasts, we did on the late great Dr. Anatoly Bonichuk. If anyone who listened to that remembers, he that information was well-known information and well-studied information in the former Soviet Union. And it was originally taken from the work of uh Edward Thorndike in ecological, I'm sorry, in uh educational psychology psychology and studying the transfer of learning. And there is near transfer and there's far transfer. There's all types of transfers, and not in my opinion, everything has to be the most specific. Obviously, we want to get to the most specific, but in my opinion, especially for the population I work with, I don't believe that you always go to just the most specific. And in anyone who's listened to previous conversations, in podcasts I've done with Matthew Lay and Dr. Robert and Ty Malilo, from a neurological standpoint, is there could be bottlenecks down below, right? Uh so how movement emergence is is dictated by what the brain allows it to do.

unknown 15:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

And if the there's a governor or a bottleneck on the brain in the capacity of the perceptual system, that's gonna affect their movements or their ability to perceive. They're not gonna be able to see that hole open up. They're not gonna be able to perceive the spin on the ball, whether we're talking tennis, softball, baseball, even soccer, right? From from a pass standpoint or hockey. You know, they're not gonna be able to perceive the the uh the athletes' body sway or where their weight is distributed or where, you know, I mean, holes are opening up. Um, you know, one of the things they try to do is get athletes more aware and more in tune with with their surroundings, with the people in the environment. And they do, man, they do such a great job. Sean did such an awesome job in a practical, I just wish it wasn't so much passive aggressiveness towards towards me and toward Tony Pelletti, but nonetheless, he did such a great job with his demonstration. Tyler, same thing, did a demonstration. Uh, there was great demonstrations there and and practical takeaways. But again, I I feel in my conversation, in my argument, was that they just they believe that everyone's perceptual system is just everyone's the same, which is not the case. There are bottlenecks. Some people, there are bottlenecks, there are developmental delays, uh, there are uh you know higher executive function issues, there are sensory mismatches, right? It's a sensory motor system.

unknown 17:07

Right?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

So let's in my my gripe and my takeaway from the conversations from the seminar was a lot of the arguments towards my claims, which we'll get into a little more, was that there is no basement, there is no low-hanging fruit, there is just that. There's just it is

A Sprinter’s Start And Hidden Bottlenecks

SPEAKER_00 17:30

what it is. So, for instance, I gave an example, and listen, I came prepared with many examples because I've been blessed to work with athletes for over 20 years. So, both being as an educator in first and second grade, working at a collegiate setting with college athletes, being blessed to work with uh uh professional athletes. And then for the last 13 years here at DC Sports Training, having athletes of all natures and sizes and abilities, um that, hey man, you know, there are some low-hanging fruit. There are kids that that can't regulate their movements, that that lack, you know, ocular motor abilities, right? They're they're they don't have eye tracking abilities. Now, I their argument was, well, then just do more eye tracking stuff. Or, you know, I made the claim, okay, so I gave an example of a track athlete I've been blessed to work with for the last four years since she was, well, eighth grade, and now she's graduating high school, she just graduated high school, and she's gonna go run track at Pitt, which is ACC Division I. Um, and working with her through the years, I and I've learning this, the neurological side of things, I've noticed things with her, and I've heard things from her coach, from her parents, from her siblings, from her, of things that just like, all right, there's there might be some underlying things going on. So, for instance, eye tracking or eye eye eye movements, right? The ability to sustain focus visually is a very daunting, demanding task. And people that struggle with maintaining eye contact and conversation, there could be some underlying things. Now, I always say, and I made sure I said could be in the debates, because I don't, I can't diagnose, I can't prescribe anything. I'm just going off of what I've learned. And I try to use more than one singularity to make a diagnosis. So, funny enough, just this week I got an athlete coming to me from a hamstring with a pretty significant hamstring injury. They went to physical therapy, and the physical therapist wrote on the script they have they have hip instability. So I asked the athlete, how did they come up with that conclusion? They said, Well, they had me stand on one leg and I wasn't able to do it. So they determined I have hip instability. This is where I think some of the arguments are on like people that just make a diagnosis, a diagnosis off of one singular test. Like, no, there that's not enough. That could have been a foot issue, that could have been a proprioceptive issue, that could have been a you know an ocular vestibular issue. There's a lot of things that could have gone into that one test. So rather than just saying it's this one thing, so I try to make sure, and I tried to make sure in the debate that it wasn't just this is what it is based off of this singular thing. So the example I gave was okay, I had this track athlete that she runs the 100 and 200 meter sprints, and her starts have always historically been terrible. And there's video evidence to back this up. So from freshman year to sophomore year, she did not improve in her block start times. You can watch the videos, and I have videos, and um, of her, she's always the last one out of the blocks. Uh, always. And they did block starts, they worked on block starts, they worked on block starts both with reactions and with no reactions, with other people in the blocks, with no people in the blocks, right? The variability of how they did it was there. And she was not improving from year one to year two, did not improve. Then going into year three, I was like, all right, let's make this a little more of a priority because she kept playing catch up and then she would pass people, but wouldn't it be nice? We, you know, we always said to her, wouldn't it be nice if we just started equal and then you wouldn't have to always play catch up to beat these people? You just beat them, you know, uh within you know the first 30 meters rather than having to catch up and then pass them by meter 60, 70. Um, and she said, Yeah, so there was the ocular issue of when she talks, she struggles maintaining eye contact. There is, she does not, she struggles with mirroring. So if I hold up my right hand, she would hold up her left hand, right? So from a mirroring standpoint, there was some, there's, there's, there's a struggle. From a coordination standpoint. Both from family games, I was told, playing like Bop It or Twister. From a dance standpoint, she struggled with dance. From knowing her right and left, from doing activities and from coaching her through the years, there was always a struggle knowing her right from her left. So if I said, you know, grab this with your right hand, there's always a pause or she'd have to look. I have general uh computer or or uh iPad apps that that work on right and left discrimination, both from a pain but also from a neurological standpoint, where it shows pictures of a foot, pictures of a hand, and then you have to tell if it's a right or left. Um, and then just again, just just having got to known her. Uh you know, she struggles with with knowing where her body's in space. So if we say lift your hips, there's times where she'd she'd lift her head and shoulders off the ground or try to keep your back flat, these coaches' cues, and she you know, you can't. Um, she's a bit clumsy, right? And I don't mean this in a knock on on the girl. I was just trying to give examples of like these are all signs that, hey, maybe there's some proprioceptive deficits, maybe there's some vestibular ocular motor things, maybe there's some primitive uh retain primitive reflexes still there based off of these things. Okay, I did not always diagnose, but after going through five, six, seven of these neurological uh uh exams, these neurological things, the conclusion was hey, okay, there could be there are these things there. Uh I use interactive metronome, which is a scientifically valid computer program that measures timing to the millisecond. And it's been studied and used in studies for years. It is a great computer program. So what it is is where you put on the athlete, puts on these headphones, and then first we do a kind of a total body examination where there's a metronome played at 54 beats per second, and the athlete can't look at anything, can't look at the computer screen. There's no visual cues, and they're trying to clap or stomp or balance and tap or use alternate feet or go right hand, left foot, left hand, right foot to the sound of this metronome. Right. And it measures it to the uh millisecond, and then at the end, it gives you this 13-14 test um results of how she tested to the millisecond based off of all those things and where the biggest discrepancies fall. Uh, she struggles with her feet, she struggles with bilateral timing, she struggles with just her hands, whatever it is. And so with this particular athlete, we did this, and I understand it's general, but we did what I explained to the crowd was we did these exams on top of everything else that we did. We tested her primitive reflexes. I had mom and dad fill out a checklist. Um, we did some some uh rhythmic movement therapy, we did some proprioceptive things, and she was deficient. She did not do very well in these tests. Now uh we can get into tests and and the likes of that, but nonetheless, a culmination of all of these things kind of point to hey, there's some underlying things going on. And her test scores when she did particularly the right hand, left foot, left hand, right foot by lateral timing was atrocious, was like really, really bad. So the timing and the way the scoring goes with the interactive metronome is the lower the score, the more accurate she is or they are to you know, uh to timing, which is an indication that the cerebellum is pretty well tuned, in tune, right? The cerebellum is the part of the brain that is kind of like it's called the tuner in chief, which helps the nervous system with doing what it wants to do. It helps with timing, right? It's it's also known as the little brain, uh and and and it contains, you know, it only contains about 10% of the brain's total volume, but but it contains roughly half of the neurons in the nervous system. And its primary role is not to create movement, but it's to organize, calibrate, and adapt movement, right? There's kind of uh an acronym, ABC's accuracy, balance, and coordination that goes with the cerebellum. And so the interactive metronome is supposed to be an indication that maybe the cerebellum is not in tune as well as it could. Um, and so we did a lot of interactive metronome with this young lady. We did a lot of proprioception, a lot of primitive reflex integration, and a lot of rhythm and rhythmic and timing activities. So whether it is we played uh Simon, whether um she played uh other kind of rhythm and timing games where there's there's she's reacting to sounds or reacting to lights, um, just things that relate to rhythm and timing. Uh, we would play a metronome over the music, or she would just listen to music and we would have rubbered mats on the floor that had uh a right foot, a left foot, both right and left foot, uh arrows that she had to jump and move in, all for coordination and timing. And this is what we did in the off seasons. Uh, we did not do anything where she did sprint. I I did specify that, but when she sprinted, she didn't do anything to other people. She wasn't uh racing anyone, and there was no other reactionary component when she did her speed work. Um, but because the weather was so shitty, I I have a very small facility. We run on concrete outside. I'm not having her time anyone. She did not go to the track in that time to race anyone. So there was no other like specific thing. So my argument was we had to take things out of context, decouple things. Now, the argument was okay, well, there's still sound. So sound is what she's reacting to when she's gone. Correct. Correct. I'm not going to debate that. However, I also did not take this girl and put her in a rubber room with no windows, sensory deprivation, and only isolate these variables to then say that's what improved her performance in the blocks. Listen, man, I can't do that. I'm not a scientist. I'm just telling you, this is what we did, this is what we found, and this is what happened. Okay, so from a results standpoint, video evidence shows, timing evidence shows she started with equal with everybody all season long. Um, was timing and block starts were no longer an issue. I then was hoping to go on as I debated other people about other scenarios, give other examples of things I've done, we've done here at DC sports training that have gotten results to the specifics of improving the athlete's performance where it matters. The conversations then I was not um ready for, I guess, where I had people

Right Left Confusion Sparks Pushback

SPEAKER_00 29:10

in the audience raise their hand. So I discussed developmental delays. And there was a gentleman that raised his hand saying his wife is a doctor and they don't believe in developmental milestones. That's fine, that's their opinion, but it is an opinion. Developmental milestones have been studied since Darwin, and I didn't create them, I didn't come up with them. I just know that if there are ranges, they're not specific time frames, there are ranges, there is veritability for these things to come on. And what the science, what I have understood the science to say is it's the total organization of the baby, of the child versus just these things that matter. So it's not just they did not crawl symmetrically. There are other things. How is the tone? How is their vestibular system? How is their balance? How is their ocular motor systems, right? Things like that that also matter in the bigger equation. Okay, and so I had a gentleman, uh, actually it was Greg Sauders, uh, raise his hand and said that he had an athlete in the middle of a match, as he gave a coaching cue to grab her left ankle, an athlete's left ankle, that the athlete he was talking to had to stop in the middle of the match, put L's up with her hand, look at it to decipher which is right from left, and then to grab the left ankle. Now that caught me off guard because I did not think that people thought that was normal, and I did not know that people thought that that's okay. To happen in the middle of the sport, to stop your movement, to then have to look at your own body to understand right from left, in my opinion, is a problem. That is a neurological organization issue. That is a possible retained primitive reflex issue. Now, and I said that, and the responses from the crowd were um a little flabbergasting, to be honest with you. I was I was taken aback by like, I don't know, I just wasn't ready for that. So a lot of the responses from the people in the crowd were, well, if they have that issue, let's just do more left-handed things. Let's just have them use their left foot more, let's get them to do more right and left, and that the right, the idea of understanding right from left is a human construct, and that we're not born with right and left, that we created this. Now, let's just I just want to marinate on that for a second because one sense they're not wrong, but the other sense is the understanding of right and left is a neurological organization issue of not knowing your body, not knowing where you are in space. That is tied in with pro-perception. That is also tied in with under like whether you believe in body schema or not, from my understanding of neurology, that there is a body schema. There is a map of your body in your brain that tells you certain things of where you are, knowing your left foot is your left foot and your left hand or right foot or whatever is important. You know what else, you know, and this is a conversation I thought of later, is you know what else is a self-construct is knowing your name. Don't you think that's important? That's kind of a life thing. Like these are life things to think that not knowing right from left and having to stop in the middle of a sporting event to hold up an L in your hand, in my opinion, is a problem. But that is just, I don't know. I I guess that's my bias. Having the Malilos, both Dr. Ty and Robert on, and having Matt on and studying the neurology that I've studied, has talked about that is a uh that is an organization, neurological organization issue. And that that is a a sensory perceptual motor issue, because from a developmental standpoint, that is where the understanding of those things come into play. And that then ties in with eye hand coordination and the vestibulosis and the ocular motor responses. So I don't know, that just caught me off guard. And I wasn't, I'm not a fast enough thinker. Anyone who's listened to this podcast is like, no shit, fast enough thinker to think on the spot as quickly as like Greg or some of those people who are just like super fast and super intelligent. And so it took me afterwards to talk to Greg to talk about that more, and then even more that evening to digest kind of fully that idea of like, you know, that's that's that's fine. Knowing not knowing right from left is a fine, it is totally fine. But anyone who's ever coached an athlete, listen, whether you use external cues or internal cues, at some point, I'm sure you've said turn left, turn right, look left, look right, whatever it is, like that's something that that's that's something you need to do. So that's why I was trying to say is the capacities, the underlying capacities of the organism are going to dictate their ability to proceed and in and take opportunity take their opportunities for action to to afford their environment. And that's going to affect their movements. And and and but I don't know. That was just one of the things that I just, you know, I don't know. That's one of the arc that's one of the conversations, not arguments, conversations, and then you know, where what's funny is so that went on for an hour, and then unfortunately the conversation had to end because you know that that's all we were slated to talk to. Um, but then I immediately went over to Greg and I wanted to talk to him more. One, just because I I think he's just such a smart coach, and I think he just he's so well needed for our for the coaching community, whether you're jujitsu or not. Just um he's he's so intelligent. And but I also wanted to talk to him more about like his thoughts, and I wanted to clarify things because again, I didn't think an hour was to do justice. Now, the arguments also with this girl, I didn't realize that the conversation with the crowd was only going to stick to that one girl. So then the other conversation, well, maybe the girl got more in tune with the sounds. Okay, maybe. Maybe the girl got more in tune with the reaction of other people in the blocks. Uh okay, maybe, but she also did a shit ton of block work for the first two years and it didn't do anything, it didn't move the needle. Um, you know, so again, I don't know. You know, um, I showed videos uh uh to to Greg and uh there was like three or four other coaches that we sat down afterwards and actually talked for like an hour or so after, which was awesome.

Vision Training Limits And The Basement

SPEAKER_00 35:56

And I showed examples of like, all right, here's a baseball player. This is a I think he was 12 or 13-year-old baseball player just doing a simple eye tracking thing where they're trying to follow their finger or follow pencil, I don't remember, in a figure eight form. And the video showed that the boy could not do it. Now, the argument was, oh, well, the boy just didn't want to. That that's just his effort. No, I promise you, because that wasn't the first video I've done that with, where the boy could not track the pencil and he played baseball. So then it was like, well, let's just do more eye tracking, right? The argument from the people in that conversation was let's just do more eye tracking work. Listen, I tried that. So anyone that knows my background um with the Harrison family, with Dr. Bill Harrison, Ryan Harrison knows like sports vision training is a large part, that's what got me into this neural world of hey, perception can change your ability to move on the field. So I'm gonna work on perception if I'm a movement guy. And so I worked on tracking, I did rock strings and eye tracking and tracking balls that flash lights when you caught it so they can follow it, shooting wiffle balls that were different colors and they had to track it over the plate or track it into their hand, ping pong balls where I'm shooting different ping-pong balls and they have to catch it, or uh using um, I have a ring that has four different colored balls on it, and I'd have to throw the ring and they'd have to catch the colored ball. I did all that shit. And what I've said in previous lectures and stuff is that improved probably 75% of my athletes' performances. But there was still that 25% that it did not change shit. They still couldn't follow a pencil, they still tracked or struggled with tracking the ball uh in their sport, tennis, uh field hockey, uh, lacrosse, softball, baseball. There was still that 25%. So then what is the underlying, what is the basement? Let's start at the basement and maybe work up was my is my argument. So that's when all the I started learning about the primitive reflexes and studying Malilo and studying Matt and IP Institute. And then when I started, it wasn't until I started doing more of the low, the the basement work, right? The the primitive reflexes, that all of a sudden all that stuff started coming online. All of a sudden, the eye tracking improved, all of a sudden, the understanding of right and left improved, and balance improved, and postural uh control improved, and their movements weren't so rigid or so just or so chaotic, right? So whether it's it's they they were freezing too much degrees of freedom or they were just they had too much and they could not control it. It wasn't until I I I started working on that that lower-hanging neurological stuff that I started seeing it. And I gave examples and I showed videos, and man, the excuses that these that the people in the crowd just kept making it, and it's and I mean this in no disrespect. I am so thankful to have those conversations to talk to those people. My argument is I don't think it's hard to have a conversation, or not a conversation, but to have a debate on a topic if you've not studied the other side of the argument. And I mean this in no disrespect, but if they if you've not studied neurological development, if you've not studied neurology and understanding how tone affects the muscle spindles and how muscle spindles affect sensitivity and properception, and proception affects core, you know, uh uh coordination, and how all that stuff is tied in, and how that affects the cerebellum, and how that affects the sensory uh motor, you know, processing, and all that stuff. It's hard to have those arguments. And so I mean this in no respect. I just don't think that that side of the conversations that were being thrown at me have ever looked at those things. I'm not saying they're wrong. Their argument a lot of times with those perception and action things is that doing just eye tracking on a string and then going to try to hit a baseball better is not going to improve. And in large part, I am going to agree with him. There are some athletes that will. I do believe in general transfer. So this is now where we're getting into capacities, right? So any, and even Tyler afterwards, we talked about it. He does believe in general capacities. Now, I don't mean to put words in his mouth because he's not here to you know tell you guys exactly how he feels. But from my conversations after our debate, was Tyler says, I do believe in general capacities. So, for instance, getting an athlete generally stronger can improve their performance on the field, can improve their speed, can improve their jumping. Anyone who's worked with athletes in the strength and interesting sector can attest to that. But there are limits to it. Not always does it transfer, and it transfers sometimes for more people or more for some people than to others. Right? So that's understanding the transfer uh transfer training continuum versus just I'm just a specialist, I'm just gonna follow the SED principle. SED principle is an acronym for uh specific uh adaptation to impose demand. I'm just gonna get better at the thing by doing the thing. Right? So this ties into the other conversations that went on with with Ty uh with I'm sorry, with Coach Javi and Tony Holler and with Sean and Tony Velletti.

Combine Prep Game Speed And Pro Reality

SPEAKER_00 41:07

So the next debate was with Tony Velletti, uh, who owns uh I think it's XPS, forgive me, uh performance down in South Florida, who uh I'm not sure how many years he's been doing it, a lot longer than me. And is man, he's got he's had more professional athletes come through his through his facility that he's worked with more top athletes, more Hall of Famers than anyone else I know personally. Uh and one of the conversations, or one of the athletes that the the conversations was geared towards was the work with um uh Travis Kelsey, forgive me. Uh and how Tony has worked with Travis Kelsey for many years, and how Sean Mishka, uh, who has a blog, who's been blogging for a very long time, who finally decided to write a book after his years of blogging, which he might as well just turn into a book, man. Um, you know, he's got, I think he's got a couple books out there, guys, which again, I I love all their work. I love everything they do. I really truly do. Um, but they are their debate was on how Tony, uh a large part of Tony's business, or a part of Tony's business, I don't want to say large part because I don't fully know everything he does, is on combine prep. And then also on Tony's system of training where he has isolated deceleration drills and isolated speed drills and change of direction drills. And so Sean, in his blog every year, writes about the best movers in the NFL. Uh Sean's Sean's heavy, you know, a lot of his work is heavily with working with NFL athletes, and so he always talks about the NFL. And in 2019, Sean wrote about how he declared Travis Kelsey as the best mover of any athlete in the NFL. Well, at that time, Travis was working with Tony Valletti, and Tony, he still works with Tony Valletti. He's in fact, Coach Velletti is going to Travis's wedding with Taylor Swift, and he talked about that. But nonetheless, I thought, so the conversation was on capacity versus transfer. Do you feel, and it it wasn't said specifically that way, but this is my take on that overall debate was do you feel that those deceleration drills, those speed drills out of context, removed from the environment in which Travis and other pro athletes have to move, transfers on the field. And the argument came back to the long-term argument of Jerry White, Jerry Rice, and how Jerry Rice, at his pro day, I guess, on a grassy field that was rainy, ran a 4 7 40, or maybe it was a 4 8, forgive me. I don't know the specific numbers, but ran a slow, but then you watch him in the game and he was blown by everyone. Greatest wide receiver of all time. You know, so how much does the 40 transfer to? To game speed, and there's lots of examples, but they really centered around Jerry Rice. And uh what Sean was saying was it has to be built within context, so you got to do more game-like activities, one-on-ones. Have you wanna develop game speed? And this is game speed was kind of really the catchphrase. And had I believe Coach Velletti not said game speed and just said speed, I think the conversation would have changed. I think it was what game speed is kind of what set uh Sean off a little bit because now we're assuming right there's context to it, or that's what Sean was arguing was like you say game speed, there has to be context. You can't remove deceleration, change of direction, speed from the environment in which it emerges. And and so doing these cone drills, doing these things uh does not fully transfer. And listen, I believe so. My takeaway from that debate was I believe both sides. I believe you need capacity. So what Tony and Tony Holler were debating was the better the athletes have these capacities for deceleration, general capacities, but also for top speed, getting an athlete to run 23 miles an hour, can can help their ability to move on the field, can help their ability to take, make, and take advantage of affordances on the field. So be able to hit a smaller hole in the gap, to be able to get around someone that is not, you know what I mean, that maybe a slower athlete couldn't get around. That's what Tony and Tony were really debating. And what the emergence guys were saying was well, it's out of context. You need to work on those abilities. And I again, I believe in both. I believe in both. Uh you know, really, I don't know. It's just capacity versus transfer. You need capacity, but you could also build capacity specific in the context in which it emerges. So you need you need both. But if you have a slow athlete, again, just to give it a number, and I know they're arguing versus you know, linear speed times or whatever, but just so the audience understands, let's say you have an athlete that runs a 4.9, they're not going to be able to uh make or take advantage of the opportunities that afford them have they ran a 4-5.

unknown 46:30

Right?

SPEAKER_00 46:31

They'll be able to exploit defenders better, possibly. They'll be able to take advantage of open gaps, open space, to create more space if they have these capacities. Um, where I don't agree, and I really didn't care for is when Sean said he thinks he could train Travis Kelsey better. I don't like, I really don't like when coaches do that, man. You know, yes, we're all competitive, yes, we're all former athletes, yes, the majority of us are failed athletes, and I don't mean that towards Sean. I was a failed athlete, you know. Um, but just we didn't go play professional. We didn't get to win things. At the end of the day, this is what I told Tony uh Valletti because I felt bad for him for everyone kind of like ripping on his what he does. At the end of the day, listen, if we're talking results, like like that's let's let's cut down to the fucking chase. We're talking results, whether it was me talking about that track athlete or or you know, Tony talking about whoever. We're talking about results. What are results? Results are winning championships, winning Olympic medals, and getting fucking paychecks. Not many people are doing it better than Tony Belletti. His guys are getting multi-million dollar contracts, getting multi-year contracts, getting multiple contracts, not just one, and our fucking Hall of Famers. So how can you argue that? Now, yes, I do believe in live environments, I do believe in live activities and problem solving. I really, really, really do. But having worked with the few professional athletes that I have, I can say, now, Sean is probably way more persuasive than I am, and people seek Sean out for different reasons than they might, Tony and Tony and myself. But getting them to do these live activities is not always what they want to do because one, they just don't want to risk the possibility of getting hurt. Tony Velletti made the great point of listen, these some of these guys are on multi-year contracts. They are the top players in their organization, and it's stipulated in their contracts that if they get hurt, they will lose their, they will lose money. So getting them, putting them in opportunities where they could possibly get hurt, step on someone's ankle, whatever it is, is not always what these people want to do, not always what the organizations will allow them to do, right? There is context to things, right? So again, tying it back to I believe everything works. No one thing is better than the other. They all work. Context is what fucking matters. Now, if you have athletes that don't have those stipulations or contracts, that are able to do these problem-solving activities, these live things, to become more attuned with their environment, with reading, you know, with or perceiving their environment, then dude, fuck yes. Fuck yes, absolutely. I work with high school kids, I work with college kids, I do these live drills on Sundays. I believe in him. I'm so tired of these closed drills with coaches, just do footwork based off of nothing. But man, context matters a lot. And with Tony Velletti, what he was trying to say is context a lot of times drives a lot of what he does. A lot of those people go there just for combine, they just want to see these capacities improve. Because for whatever reason, the NFL believes in these capacities. But you know what I mean? And that it's just one, it's just one part of the equation. It's really just a one part of the equation. Um, and that's that's again, so long story short,

What I’m Taking Forward

SPEAKER_00 50:22

guys. I apologize for the long run. I I went off on some tangents. My takeaways from this conference was it is so well fucking needed. I highly recommend anyone listening to please go to next year. It's always in June. I'm pretty sure it's always in June. It's always it's it's in Minnesota. Read their books. They have a football book, they have papers published. Sean just came out with a couple books. Constraints led approach. There's multiple books, nonlinear pedagogy, skill acquisition books are all over the place, from Keith David's to all these people. They're it's awesome. Great fucking tools. If you work with athletes, I believe it is mandatory that you read this shit. Now, I don't believe that it's mandatory that you only follow that side of that side of the argument. I think context matters a lot. Okay, that is the moral of the story. Transfer versus capacity. You can build specific capacities that transfer better, but there is also general capacities that can transfer depending on the fucking person. And just assume that everyone's organism is the same, that we're all our ocular motor system is the same. I think it's just naive. And I think it's cognitive lazy. I really do. I think it's just cognitively lazy. But um, man, I had a great time. I loved it. I'm so thankful to Sean and Tyler and Coach Javi and Greg for putting that on every year. Um again, man, I loved it. I hope to have those guys back on the podcast. Um, you know, please check it out. If you guys have any more questions, you want to learn more about the seminar, reach out to me. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to give you my little two cents on it. I absolutely loved it. Thank you.